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Require your assistance please.

tjukurpa
tjukurpa		 Require your assistance please.
Sep 17 2006, 11:19 AM EDT
Hello:
I have just recently found your page on the Koolie and wonder if you might read my comments left there and that there might be a chance that you could render me some assistance in adjusting a few items of information which since their formulation have proven incorrect, such as the influence of Captain Cook, upon looking at the manifest for all his voyages to Australia there is no information to imply that Collie bloodlines were on any of those ships. The only reference is to puppies, adult dogs and their numbers. but if we look at our early Australian paintings from Captain Cooks era we see mostly terriers and small breeds used for hunting small game, like rats and rabbits. It was not until the true establishment of a sheep industry that we saw the arrival of herding type breeds, the Collie included, the sheep which came with the first fleet were all but a handful eaten in the first year according to Cooks own diary entries.
The area referred to colonized by German immigrants was South Australia along the wheatbelt country, Lutheran Germans came to Australia in the early part of the 1800s to escape persecution for following their beliefs in Germany, many were of a rural background.
As indicated by our early painters who recorded the commencement of our country’s History, it is not presumed that those first animal arrivals were the ancestors of Australian working breeds.

This comment is n two parts due to limit of space.
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tjukurpa
tjukurpa		 RE: Require your assistance please.
Sep 17 2006, 11:21 AM EDT
Second part to comments.
The single most driving understanding one does achieve by living here in Australia is the sole reason behind the formation of working breeds unique to Australia, none that were brought out with mobs of sheep or purposely imported were suitable for the job, namely moving large groups of stock across vast open areas of hot dry dusty scrub land. In unpredictable and extreme climates conditions, it is the very reason why stockman and graziers still work to breed the best to the best.
In each environment the breeds were selected to withstand her climate and meet the needs of the stockman.
Koolies were formed from the natural selection of the best to the best, shorter coats to with stand the heat, cat like paws with tight pads to withstand the burs, three corner jacks and grass seed, athletic frames for stamina and endurance, character traits like willingness and loyalty to see the job completed and as the people moved into new areas and new climates the Koolie adapted again and again always meeting the stockman’s needs, longer legged in the Northern country where they run Simmentals and Brahma, shorter in the south for trucks, yards and sheep, longer thicker coated in the Alpines and yet their very diversity is what makes the Koolie so sought after.
Their foundation parents are the German Tiger and Collie working bloodlines from Scotland, and other rural parts of Europe.
They didn’t die out because they were too heavy, large or vociferous, they thrived and are seen as the oldest working breed in Australia and possibly a foundation breed for the Kelpie, Cattle dog and Aussie Shepherd breeds as DNA will eventual uncover.
Why are they not known as readily as the ACD or Kelpie, because they are on the land working which is what they were bred for.
I could go on as there is so much more to the story but I have run out of space again.
Thank you for your time, hope you can help. 0  out of 9 found this valuable. Do you?    

Anonymous		 RE: Require your assistance please.
Oct 3 2006, 10:41 PM EDT
"Second part to comments.

They didn’t die out because they were too heavy, large or vociferous, they thrived and are seen as the oldest working breed in Australia and possibly a foundation breed for the Kelpie, Cattle dog and Aussie Shepherd breeds as DNA will eventual uncover.

"
The Coolie has not been found to be in the ancestory of either the Australian Cattle Dog, nor the Australian Working Kelpie. Extensive research has been done by Noreen Clark on the ACD and by Mary and Stephen Bilson on the Kelpie and no where is the Coolie mentioned to have been a part of the foundation dogs that created these two breeds.
http://www.adcb.au.com/
http://www.geocities.com/Petsburgh/6392/
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Anonymous		 RE: Require your assistance please.
Oct 4 2006, 12:21 AM EDT
I do not claim the Koolie is an ancestor only present the possibility.
In breed books referring to the ACD and the Kelpie it is referenced the blue merle is part of their possible foundations.
As our research is uncovering, the German Tiger a herding breed used and bred in Germany came to Australia earlier than 1825 much earlier than recorded information regarding Collie or other herding influences arrived here.
I say 1825 as this was the date that German author Von Stephan used in his book the German Shepherd in word and picture, he refers to his personal visit to Australia in that year and his delightful discovery of the exportation of herding breeds from Germany to Australia by Graziers, the blue merle Tiger amongst them. He even wrote that this breed was locally referred to as the Germans Collie.
It is possibly that the blue merle that is referred to in the history of the ACD and Kelpie could in fact be the progeny of these German Influences as they were later to be known as German Collies, then German Koolies, Koolie and now accepted as Australian Koolies.
Noreen Clark raised some tantalising items in her book, when we were visiting with her last year, she was very forthcoming and very helpful in our efforts to get all information correct and she is an advocate of the need to DNA
DNA will uncover all secrets.
Just a quick request is it possible for you to sign in, it's not that I believe your trying to hide your idenity, it's just that there was this other anonymous who was terribly trashy on the Wikipdeia and I don't wish to get confused, know you will understand thanks, not trying to offend. 1  out of 10 found this valuable. Do you?    

Anonymous		 RE: Require your assistance please.
Oct 4 2006, 1:35 AM EDT
"I do not claim the Koolie is an ancestor only present the possibility.
In breed books referring to the ACD and the Kelpie it is referenced the blue merle is part of their possible foundations.

It is possibly that the blue merle that is referred to in the history of the ACD and Kelpie could in fact be the progeny of these German Influences as they were later to be known as German Collies, then German Koolies, Koolie and now accepted as Australian Koolies.
Noreen Clark raised some tantalising items in her book, when we were visiting with her last year, she was very forthcoming and very helpful in our efforts to get all information correct and she is an advocate of the need to DNA
DNA will uncover all secrets.
"
No, Stephen and Mary Bilson's research does not reveal any reference to the Coolie breed. Blue merle in the ACD breed refered to a ticked dog, not the present day merle patch work pattern. If it can't be proven, don't reference it. It would be the same as saying that some think the Coolie is a German Shepherd Dog cross. I have also read Noreen Clark's book, as well as spoken to her. She advocate's DNA testing for color, PRA and PRCD. As for now, there has not been any DNA tests that can detect the different breeds, however; there is a difference between Border Collie and Newfoundland DNA. 11  out of 12 found this valuable. Do you?    

Anonymous		 RE: Require your assistance please.
Oct 4 2006, 11:41 AM EDT
"
I say 1825 as this was the date that German author Von Stephan used in his book the German Shepherd in word and picture, he refers to his personal visit to Australia in that year and his delightful discovery of the exportation of herding breeds from Germany to Australia by Graziers, the blue merle Tiger amongst them. He even wrote that this breed was locally referred to as the Germans Collie.
"
Could you point out what page in his book that you found this information, as I am unable to find it? 9  out of 10 found this valuable. Do you?    

Anonymous		 RE: Require your assistance please.
Oct 5 2006, 1:11 PM EDT
"Could you point out what page in his book that you found this information, as I am unable to find it?"
I have the book in front of me and I've missed that portion of his writings. It would really be interesting reading, if you could tell me what page to look on to find it. 8  out of 9 found this valuable. Do you?    

Anonymous		 RE: Require your assistance please.
Oct 5 2006, 1:46 PM EDT
Since he was and still is considered the father of the German Shepherd Dog it would be nice if you would prefer to him correctly as Max von Stephanitz, out of respect for someone that done so much for that breed.

He founded the GSD breed in 1899, he died in 1936 ---- hum, if he was in Australia in 1825, that would make him pretty darn old. I'll help 1936 to 1825 is 111 years. AND, "IF" he was in Australia in 1825, as you say --- then he waited until he was 74 years old to form the "Verein für Deutsche Schäferhunde" (German Shepherd Dog Society). Seems like a pretty tall tale that you are spreading.

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dogzrmylife

dogzrmylife		 RE: Require your assistance please.
Oct 8 2006, 12:42 AM EDT
Could anyone tell me who decided to change the name and spelling of this dog breed after so many years of it being called a German Coolie?
Was it changed by a person or the Koolie/Coolie Club?
If it was a club, how many people voted to change it?
IMHO (sorry if I upset everyone) I think those type of facts need to be recorded in the history of the dog breed with the new name. I think rather than saying "some people" decided or "a club" decided, the circumstances of the name change should be accurately recorded (particularly before these facts are lost in time). 13  out of 13 found this valuable. Do you?    

Anonymous		 RE: Require your assistance please.
Oct 8 2006, 2:07 PM EDT
"Their foundation parents are the German Tiger and Collie working bloodlines from Scotland, and other rural parts of Europe.
They didn’t die out because they were too heavy, large or vociferous, they thrived and are seen as the oldest working breed in Australia and possibly a foundation breed for the Kelpie, Cattle dog and Aussie Shepherd breeds as DNA will eventual uncover.
"
Tjukurpa --- "IF" the Coolie's foundation parents were the German Tiger ---- which there is no proof to that --- and the Collie from Scotland; then the Coolie is NOT an Australian bred dog.

The Coolie is not the foundation for the Kelpie; that has been proven by Mary and Stephen Bilson. The Coolie is not the foundation for the ACD; that has been proven by Noreen Clark. The Coolie is not the foundation for the Australian Shepherd; that has been proven by the fact that -- as you say, all Coolies have been cleared by the Ivermectin Sensitivity Test; C.A. Sharp, Pres. Australian Shepherd Health & Genetics Institute, Inc., All Aussies All Genes All the Time, http://www.ashgi. org , states that "one out of three Aussies carries this mutation and lethal drug reactions are a possibility for those dogs". So, IF the Coolie IS the FOUNDATION for the Australian Shepherd, where did the mutated gene come from? The fact is, the mutated gene originated from one male and one female Collie. NOT every dog, who's ancestors were the Collie carry the bloodlines of those two individual dogs.

All these are YOUR theories, which can not be proven. You keep saying, "DNA will uncover secrets" --- how can a marker be found for the "Coolie", when your foundation dogs, admitted by yourself, are from the pound/rescue and off the streets, which you have no idea what breed(s) they are from? You openly admitted that MoJo (another foundation dog from your kennel) is German Shepherd Cross.

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