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Location: Goldendoodle Hybrids
Discussion: Can you explain this?
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Anonymous |
Can you explain this?
Nov 18 2007, 12:04 AM EST You say in your post, "Goldendoodle parent is a male who has twice the Poodle DNA structure", what does this (twice the Poodle DNA structure) mean? Thanks 0 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
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Anonymous |
RE: Can you explain this?
Nov 19 2007, 11:13 AM EST Please visit our website at http://www.goldendoodleworld.com and click on the link "available doodles". If you click on the link for "Mara's" litter, the page will explain what we mean. If you want to learn about canine genetics, please visit http://www.vetgen.com or you can just type in your google search box "canine genetics + DNA" and many good sites will come up to help you learn about canine genetics. 2 out of 3 found this valuable. Do you? |
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Anonymous |
RE: Can you explain this?
Nov 21 2007, 5:54 PM EST vetgen tells me nothing and nothing on their site about that. I searched but could find nothing about what you said on your website, "Goldendoodle parent is a male who has twice the Poodle DNA structure". Can you explain it, or not? Do you find this valuable? |
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Anonymous |
RE: Can you explain this?
Nov 23 2007, 10:39 PM EST Can ANYONE explain what is meant by "a male who has twice the Poodle DNA structure", but is said to have a parent that is a Poodle and a parent that is a Golden Retriever? I'm thinking that some breeders put stuff on their websites and then have no idea how to explain it because they've copied it from somewhere else. Do you find this valuable? |
 Yatahae |
RE: Can you explain this?
Nov 24 2007, 4:25 AM EST " Hi Anomymous -- I'm not sure I can explain what this breeder had in mind when he/she wrote about "twice the Poodle DNA". However; I can explain basic genetics as I'm very familiar with it. When breeding a dog and female, the puppies receive 50% of the sire's DNA and 50% of the mother's DNA (I'm keeping it simple and I won't confuse you by telling you about mDNA), nothing more and nothing less. Everything you see on the outside is dictated by genes, and everything that you don't see is dictated by genes. For example: Golden Retriever male mated with Poodle female = all puppies 50% Golden Ret and 50% Poodle. Just because a pup looks more like a Golden or more like a Poodle does not mean that one is more Golden, or one is more Poodle --- they are 50/50 and that is it. Curly coats are dominant to non-curly. So, every puppy in the 50/50 Golden/Poodle (yes, I know they are called Goldendoodle) cross with be curly coated and will carry the gene for non-curly. So --- if you breed a Golden/Poodle to another Golden/Poodle then some pups will have curly coats, some won't --- because of how the genes paired up. This does NOT mean that one pup is more poodle than the other, or is more Golden than the other. It simply means that, that puppy received a copy of non-curly coat from dad and a copy for non-curly coat from the mother. Same thing if you bred a Golden/Poodle to a Golden Ret --- some pups would have a curly coat, some wouldn't. Also, the coat color and eye color will tell you alot when you go to buy a Goldendoodle; it will tell you if another breed as been bred in there. Perhaps, you should email privately for more coat color genetics, as it can get lengthly. I've been asked to make a coat color genetics page for the Goldendoodle; if time allows, I will do that. I look forward to hearing from you - I hope this helped. 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
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Anonymous |
RE: Can you explain this?
Nov 24 2007, 7:50 PM EST From checking out the website where this is mentioned, I *think* I was able to determine that when she talks about a goldendoodle with twice the poodle DNA, she is *not* referring to a pup born to one golden retriever parent and one poodle parent. Instead, she is referring to a pup born to a "goldendoodle (50% poodle/50%golden)" parent and a poodle parent (in other words, 3/4 poodle). So technically I believe 3/4 is actually 3 times 1/4, not simply double. This does not take into consideration the sex of the puppy or which parent was the poodle and which was the goldendoodle aka mixed breed/hybrid/whatever. The X chromosome (from the dam) has more info on it than the Y chromosome (given by the male parent to his male offspring). There is a lot of "shaky" info at this site, by the way. All breeding dogs absolutely should have their phenotypes tested (via OFA for hips and elbows, CERF for eyes, etc.). True, a phenotypically clear dog *may* carry genetic material resulting in hip dysplasia (a polygenic disease) when mated with the "wrong" mate - but a phenotypically *affected* dog obviously is carrying the bad genes! There are only 2 reasons NOT to test breeding dogs: 1) save money ; 2) not having to remove an affected animal from the breeding program (which also saves money). The business about submitting DNA to Vetgen so it can be determined if a pup's problem is genetic is hysterical. Vetgen only has defined markers for certain diseases in certain breeds - for example, PRA (progressive retinal atrophy) and vonWillebrands (clotting disorder) among others. So if a goldendoodle gets hip dysplasia, guess what - numerous studies have shown this is a genetic disease. I advise this goldendoodle expert to get a copy of Dr. George Padgett's book, Control of Canine Genetic Disease (title may not be exact, my copy is at work). He notes that mixed breed dogs are *not* immune to genetic disease, far from it! Do you find this valuable? |
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Yatahae |
RE: Can you explain this?
Nov 24 2007, 11:23 PM EST I saw that, but I also found where she mentions that she was referring not to the parents, but to how the pups looked. I tried to find the exact page again, but was not able to locate it. Their phenotype has nothing to do with if they are more this breed or that breed, when only referring to a 50/50 mating. The pups only receive one copy of the gene from the dad and one from the female. Yes, the male can only give his "X" chromosome to his daughters and his "Y" chromosome to his sons. I wouldn't say the X chromosome as more information than the Y -- just different. Also, most of the "Designer dog" breeders use the word "Hybrid" erroneously. A hybrid is the progeny between different species -- ie donkey and horse; Zebra and horse, etc... and not between same species as dog to dog. You mean "genotype", not phenotype. Phenotype is what you can see -- genotype is the actual genetic makeup. :o). There are lots of "coat color" mistakes on the site, but there are some good links, also. You are referring to Mitochondrial DNA -- mtDNA is only passed from the mother to the child. Yes, Padgett's book is a good one. Amazon.com has some good books on genetics. Also, Malcom Willis's genetics book is good reading. Do you find this valuable? |
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Anonymous |
RE: Can you explain this?
Nov 25 2007, 1:02 AM EST I am pretty sure she is using goldendoodles (50-50 golden and poodle or whatever) in her "breeding program" such that it is. I breed and show an AKC recognized breed, and do thorough health testing on ALL DOGS that I breed. Not just the ones used for breeding - the *entire litters* meaning the spayed and neutered pets. Any one who is a dedicated breeder breeding to a breed standard while at the same time trying to reduce the incidence of genetic disease, knows that you have to look at the entire litter. For example, a dog with OFA Fair hips from a litter of 10 with the other 9 all being Good or Excellent, may be a better breeding candidate than the dog with OFA Excellent hips whose littermates were all borderline or dysplastic. She is somewhat correct that OFA clearances in the straightline pedigree are of somewhat limited value - compared to extended pedigree clearances. But this is no excuse for not testing!!! I was appalled by much of the info on the website. Good grief, charging MORE for blue-eyed pups! In my breed, blue eyes are a disqualification in the show ring. Blue-eyed pups have their appeal and people who want "just" a pet (I use the quotes because I am *not* looking down on the pet dogs and I prefer that my pups go to pet homes than show homes) often like the blue eyes. But I would never *select* for blue eyes, because that would be selecting against the breed standard. I did mean phenotype not genotype. Phenotype is what you see, and an OFA clear dog may still carry "bad" genes, but an OFA affected dog definitely does. I believe the X chromosome has more info on it, thus some of the sex-linked diseases (where the "bad" gene is on the X and there is nothing to counteract it on the Y, so the male dog is affected but a female with 2 X's is not - if she had bad genes on both X's she would even die in some cases). I have attended presentations by both Padgett and Willis - awesome! 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
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Yatahae |
RE: Can you explain this?
Nov 25 2007, 5:11 AM EST Yes, speaking of sex-linked diseases, I agree with the "more info" on the X chromosome. It is interesting that you should use "phenotype" in that description, I never thought of it like that. Normally, phenotype is reserved for "looks" and everything else is genotype -- or at least in the genetic circles I frequent. It is interesting that neither breed, the Poodle nor the Golden Retriever, usually carries or is known to have blue eyes. ;) From a genetics standpoint, I'd like to know how many piebald (or parti-colored as they are called) Poodles are still out there. You would think the breeders had pretty much bred that spotting out. Do you know? My mom bred and raised Poodles and I don't think she ever had one or produced one in all the years she bred them. Do you find this valuable? |
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Anonymous |
RE: Can you explain this?
Nov 25 2007, 12:37 PM EST Genotype is the genetic makeup, phenotype is the visible expression. So, when you OFA a dog, you are checking its phenotype (and by OFA'ing the entire litter you are refining your guess at genotype). However, when you send a cheek swab to Vetgen for a vonWillebrands test, then you are checking genotype (you will know if your dog is genetically clear, genetically a carrier, or genetically affected). Speaking of Vetgen - DNA can be used to verify parentage. It can be used to test for genotype for certain diseases for certain breeds. It can be collected for future research. But I do not believe that it can be used today to prove/disprove whether a pup's possible genetic disease is or is not genetic based on the DNA of its parents. To determine whether or not a disease (such as hip dysplasia) is genetic, researchers have looked at many, many families of dogs. So if a pup has hip dysplasia, it likely came from its parents (even if both were OFA Excellent - and yes, that can happen). I cannot guarantee my pups won't be dysplastic, but I can (and will) return the purchase price of the pup to the owner so they can apply it to the expensive surgery. Padgett's book lists the genetic diseases affecting each breed - for many diseases, they are known to be genetic due to years of test breeding. I don't know much about poodles but I do know parti-color is a DQ in the standard. I also know that puppy millers like to breed them because some people think they're cute. I'm assuming they're a DQ in the standard because long ago breeders noticed problems associated with the color. I am also assuming that many poodles in goldendoodle pedigrees are from puppy mill lines. That is probably where the blue eyes are coming from, but that's just my guess. 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
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Yatahae |
RE: Can you explain this?
Nov 25 2007, 2:27 PM EST I'm actually well college educated, work and personally experienced in genetics. The only way to produce blue eyes in a breed that is brown eyed is to infuse another breed in there, or through color. With the lack of color on the head, there is also a lack of pigment in the eye color --- thus the blue eye. BUT, if the white markings aren't normally in the breed, one must cross breed with another breed that does have the white coloration. In order to produce the puppy with a white head, both parents must be carrying that gene. If one wanted to go the color route. Of course, along with a white head -- comes deafness caused by lack of pigment deep inside the ear canal. It's easier sometime to just breed with a blue eyed dog, keep a puppy and then the blue eye gene is your line. If the blue eye is something the breeder wants in their lines. Which judging by the differences in price, blue eye -vs- brown eye, I guess one would want blue eyes so they could justify charging more for a puppy. Blue eyes are pretty, I have to admit, but not something that I would specificially select for. Do you find this valuable? |
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Yatahae |
RE: Can you explain this?
Nov 25 2007, 2:35 PM EST "The only way to produce blue eyes in a breed that is brown eyed is to infuse another breed in there, or through color. " I guess I should have clarified this --- blue eyes can also be caused by a genetic defect such as Waardenburg's syndrome; usually this is coupled with the loss of pigment (resulting in a wide white blaze or white head), and some are deaf. Do you find this valuable? |
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Anonymous |
RE: Can you explain this?
Nov 25 2007, 3:22 PM EST So maybe the reason particolor is a disqualifying fault in AKC poodles is the long-ago breeders knew that the coloration (and the blue eyes) came from a recent (in the overall scheme of things) ancestor that was not a purebred poodle? This is not my breed and I don't know about the history, just that although particolor is a disqualifying fault, I see particolor poodles advertised frequently. Blue eyes are a DQ in my breed, but they do sometimes occur from 2 dark-eyed parents (each carrying the recessive for blue eyes). In my line of work, I do see alot of "purebreds" from the "off" registries that don't look purebred to me. As the high volume breeders became disgusted with AKC regulations, they spun off their own registries without those pesky rules about accurate parentage and paperwork. I don't think too many quality AKC Poodle and Golden Retriever breeders would be thrilled to see their lines used to produce goldendoodles - so the lines probably come from backyard breeders, whose lines generally come from the puppy mills (because the serious breeders are serious about pets being spayed/neutered). Do you find this valuable? |
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Yatahae |
RE: Can you explain this?
Nov 25 2007, 4:23 PM EST Poodles were orginally bred to be dominant "K" at the K Locus, thus; not allowing any color pattern from the A Locus to be expressed. This is why there are no sable or tan pointed Poodles in the show ring. I'm sure that not every single Poodle generation was selected with the K gene in mind, because most have no clue about it. So, you will still see the sable (called phantom) and the tan point Poodle around, although; they are rare. Cross breeding is, however; "creating" Poodle-like puppies with the sable and tan point pattern. You'd be surprised at the amount of chocolate to chocolate mating (yes, they both have brown noses) where there is a black or blue puppy in the litter. This is a definate indication that the litter had two different sires! Chocolate bred to chocolate will never produce black or blue, because the black gene is not there to be produced and if black can not be produced then blue can't either. 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
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Anonymous |
RE: Can you explain this?
Nov 26 2007, 12:46 AM EST I always thought particolor was white with some other color, didn't realize there were colors like phantom! So did some searching artound on the internet, and found some interesting sites about particolor and phantom poodles where, even those these are DQ in the AKC shows, the breeders *are* breeding to the standard (except for color) and do not seem to be breeding simply to meet consumer demand (and thus make $$). Or maybe I'm just being suckered in along with everyone else... that's the problem with what you read on the internet. Do you find this valuable? |
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Anonymous |
RE: Can you explain this?
Dec 30 2007, 4:12 AM EST I bought a F1 goldendoodle. she is brown with green eyes. My understanding of the punnett square makes this an impossibility. A golden's phenotype BBee and the poodle bbee (maybee he was "red"). My puppy does have some white paws and mark on her chest. Do you think she is really F1 goldendoodle? I've read something about phantom genes may be at play. Do you find this valuable? |
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Yatahae |
RE: Can you explain this?
Dec 30 2007, 12:51 PM EST "I bought a F1 goldendoodle. she is brown with green eyes. My understanding of the punnett square makes this an impossibility. A golden's phenotype BBee and the poodle bbee (maybee he was "red"). My puppy does have some white paws and mark on her chest. Do you think she is really F1 goldendoodle? I've read something about phantom genes may be at play." If the sire of the litter is indeed a genetically black (B) dog that is also carrying black (B) and is an e^e red/yellow, and the mother of the litter is indeed an e/e red carrying chocolate (or brown [b]); and your puppy has a brown nose --- then NO this is not genetically possible. It's not possible because the sire or the BBee, would only give the "B" (which is black) gene and therefore the puppy or any puppies should not be chocolate. B^B e^e bred to a b^b e^e (assume that they are both D^D at the D locus) --- all puppies will be an e^e red/yellow or golden with a black nose. None of the puppies should have a brown nose. Maybe a DNA parentage test is in order. 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
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Anonymous |
RE: Can you explain this?
Jan 10 2008, 5:53 PM EST About that brown F1 golden doodle. It may be legitimate. It seems that the golden retriever breed was created in the early 1800 and did not become register as pure bred until 1927. Because it is a relatively recently created breed, it is not unusual, although uncommon to have a golden retriever with a recessive brown Bbee instead of the usual BBee. The Bbee retriever would look indentical to the usual variety. In fact , occasioanlly a litter may produce a bbee if two goldens with this "hidden" brown recessive breed. The result is a golden retriever with liver colored nose and green eyes. These dogs would not meet the standard for show but are still purebred nontheless. So it is entirely possible if the golden retriever was Bbee and the poodle was bbEe or bbEE or BbEe or BbEE that there could be a brown bbEe or bbEE F1 goldendoodle. Do you find this valuable? |
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Yatahae |
RE: Can you explain this?
Jan 10 2008, 10:19 PM EST This person asked if the Golden was BBee, could it be possible to produce a chocolate puppy, when bred to a dog that was bbee --- my answer was and still is no. Do you find this valuable? |
 goldendoodleworld |
RE: Can you explain this?
Apr 17 2008, 3:53 PM EDT A Goldendoodle with twice the Poodle genetic structure means a Goldendoodle with Twice the Poodle DNA.....ie....even if a Goldendoodle is bred to a Poodle, not all of the offspring will pick up twice the Poodle. Each puppy would have to have a DNA test if the breeder wanted to know for sure how much Golden Retriever and how much Poodle each puppy picked up in their genetic structure. Do you find this valuable? |